May 23, 2026
Why Men Over 40 Sleep Worse Than They Think With Nick Lambe - 110
Most men know sleep matters, but very few understand what they should actually fix.
In this episode of Driven For Health, I sit down with Nick Lambe, known as The Online Sleep Coach, for a practical conversation about sleep, recovery, and why so many men over 40 have accepted poor sleep as normal.
We talk about why sleep is about more than getting enough hours. Nick breaks down the key areas that matter most: sleep duration, sleep continuity, sleep regularity, and your relationship with sleep. A man can be in bed for 8 hours and still wake up tired if his sleep is broken, inconsistent, or filled with stress and frustration.
We also get into REM sleep, non-REM sleep, deep sleep, sleep tracking devices like the Oura Ring, and why sleep scores can be useful without becoming something you obsess over. Nick explains why brain wave activity gives the clearest picture of sleep behavior, and why most consumer devices should be viewed as pattern trackers instead of perfect sleep reports.
A major part of this conversation is the mental and behavioral side of sleep. Many men start labeling themselves as bad sleepers. They expect to wake up. They get frustrated before they even get into bed. Over time, the bed becomes connected with pressure, clock watching, work thoughts, and trying to force sleep.
Nick explains concepts like conditioned arousal, stimulus control, and why the bed should be associated with sleep instead of scrolling, email, television, or problem-solving your entire life at night.
We also cover what to do when you wake up in the middle of the night and cannot fall back asleep, how stress and mood affect sleep, and why better sleep can support fat loss, blood sugar control, training recovery, hunger, cravings, patience, and energy.
If you are a man over 40 trying to lose weight, improve your labs, get stronger, and feel better during the day, sleep needs to be part of the conversation.
In this episode, we cover:
• Why sleep is about more than hours
• The difference between sleep duration, continuity, and regularity
• How REM and non-REM sleep support the brain and body
• Why sleep trackers can help, and when they create more stress
• How to use a sleep diary instead of relying only on devices
• Why many men normalize poor sleep
• The 3 Ps of sleep problems: predisposing, precipitating, and perpetuating factors
• How negative thoughts about sleep can keep the problem going
• What conditioned arousal is and why it matters
• Why the bed should be used for sleep instead of work, scrolling, or worry
• What to do if you wake up and cannot fall back asleep
• How sleep affects mood, recovery, hunger, cravings, and performance
You can learn more about Nick Lambe and his Certified Sleep and Recovery Coach Course here:
https://www.sleepcoachcourse.com/
Also, make sure to register for the Men Over 40 Health Summit, happening June 8 to 14. This free digital event brings together 100+ experts covering the areas men over 40 need most, including strength, fat loss, hormones, metabolic health, recovery, sleep, energy, and long-term health.
Register for the Men Over 40 Health Summit here:
https://www.menover40healthsummit.com/
If you want help creating a simple plan for your own health, fat loss, labs, energy, and daily structure, email me at brian@brianparana.com and ask about the Health Hot Seat.
Want help applying this to your own health, weight, energy, or lab numbers?
Coach Brian Parana offers Health Hot Seat coaching segments for men who want a clear next step with nutrition, fitness, weight loss, blood pressure, cholesterol, A1C, or daily consistency.
Learn more about The Call To Rise, a 100-day coaching program for driven men over 40 who want to lose weight, improve their health, and rebuild confidence:
To connect with Coach Brian:
brian@brianparana.com
Disclaimer: This podcast is for education and coaching support only. It is not medical advice. Always work with your physician before changing medication, treatment, or medical care.
- Riddle me this, guys listening in. What is one [music] thing that humans do that no other living creature does on the planet Earth? That is disregard sleep. And today in Driven for Health episode 110 with Nick Lambe. He's the online sleep coach. [music] He specializes in sleep recovery coaching and helps coaches and clients understand the impacts of what sleep has on your health, your performance, your metabolism, recovery, and all the things [music] of just literally living longer at a higher quality of life. Huge topic.
- I haven't covered it yet, and I'm very [music] pleased to bring you on. And we're also in with the Men's >> [music] >> Over 40 Summit. That's something that I have been promoting through my emails and through on this podcast. [music] It's going to be going on June 8th to the 14th, so soon, like in 3 weeks, 2 weeks >> [music] >> from now when you listen to this.
- So, please check in the show notes for the link [music] to join in. And this is going to be a stack. I'm one of many other highly qualified, seasoned professionals in the business that will be in the show. Nick, welcome, and let's start off with the zinger. What's one key thing you want the guys listening in to take away? >> [music] >> Brian, thank you for having me, man, and thank you for everyone listening in.
- Biggest thing here [music] to understand with sleep is the way I always frame this is sleep is the single most important [music] literally every aspect of your life, whether that be health-wise, whether that be [music] body composition, whether that be performance, whether that be overall health. There is not one other lever a single lever you can [music] control that has as much of a wide-ranging impact as sleep.
- >> [music] >> It impacts every single physiological system. It directly affects every single goal and outcome that you're looking to achieve. It is the linchpin. It is the lever that you can pull that influences everything else, and the beauty is that it's free, and it's among the lowest hanging fruit that's there for you.
- Yep. Unfortunately, like Brian said at the top, it is something that gets deprioritized a lot, and we'll obviously unpack that a little bit, but it really is the biggest low-hanging fruit that is there and readily available for you. I agree. I would say I've been in this profession for 23 years. This is basically I live, eat, sleep, breathe that I sleep is is a thing.
- I I live, eat, and and not sleep so good this in a sense. So, I myself will fall humble to you and say, "Yes, that is a big challenge for me." Why? I've got four kids. I just yesterday celebrated my 20th anniversary with my wife Amber and our daughter's 11th birthday. Big day, but there was party planning the night before that we were up too late cuz kids wouldn't go to bed.
- They're all excited. My daughter's all excited and she just wanted to stay up till 11:00 or something. And then we had the day of and she didn't want to go to bed because she was so excited. And so, uh and then I have to get up for school to take the kids to school. So, I have a hard beginning of my day around 6:45, 7:00, and it's pretty notorious that midnight is usually So, I can get that 6:00 to 7:00, but I absolutely know 7:00 to 8:00 would just make my life so much better, and 8:00 beyond would be unfathomable to to to do on a consistent
- basis. So, so let's jump in on that. Yeah. I think the biggest thing one of the one of the main focuses that I I on with with people around sleep and that I think is vastly under-appreciated is your relationship with sleep. I know that sounds corny, cliche, or your relationship with sleep, but it really is the the fundamental piece to this because inevitably there is life, there is obligations, there is never going to be perfect circumstance for sleep.
- You're not going to get ideal and optimal sleep 365 days a year. There's going to be bouts of your life that are more intense or more busy or have increased commitments. All of those things that are going to cause sleep to inevitably suffer for days, even weeks, sometimes months at a time. Yep. >> And that is okay.
- That is just part of the human experience and that's normal. But when we talk about your relationship with sleep, this is fundamentally how you view your sleep and your sleep situation, what you do in those situations when sleep is going to inevitably suffer, and really just how you approach it overall in the sense of even some of the misconceptions that are, I think, even though coming from a good place, that are perpetuated in the wrong way.
- One of which is just since you alluded to it, one of which is the sleep duration focus. And we tend to base all of the discussion around sleep success, sleep health, and I even see this I work actually predominantly with other coaches and other practitioners. Even amongst the coach and practitioner community, this is the focus.
- Where a lot of the coaches and practitioners that work with their clients, their patients, the conversation is do you sleep 8 hours? If you don't, hey, let's try to make that more of a focus. And if you do, or if you say that you do, we're just going to not talk about it anymore. Okay, right.
- You checked the box and yeah, we're going to move on to food or whatever else. And it's it's really interesting to me in one sense because of this where I think, and I'm sure you would agree being in the space for a long time, I think the vast vast majority of elements of fitness, nutrition, wellness are over complicated. They are communicated and put out in a way more complicated sense than they need to be when >> in reality the practical application and what you need to know can and should be a lot simpler.
- Sleep is the a bit of a unicorn in this sense where I find it's actually the only thing that gets over simplified. Okay. And part of it is this sleep duration. The idea that we can just condense sleep health, sleep success down to this arbitrary number >> number sleeping 7 or 8 hours and then I just heard >> of how everybody really thinks about about sleep.
- I I got to get this 7 8 hours and anything below that line is an utter failure. And this is part of what shapes that relationship with sleep to where as an example, I would much rather somebody gets 6 and 1/2 hours of really good quality and depth of sleep. And we'll talk about some of the distinctions between the different types of quality and depth of sleep and how much that ultimately matters.
- I would rather somebody get that in the form of 6 and 1/2 hours than be in bed for 8 hours getting what they believe to be 8 hours of sleep, but it's really inefficient sleep and it's not of good quality and it's inconsistent and even worse, it's shaping a poor and negative relationship with sleep. Right. One of the other things that's really important to understand here with sleep as a foundation, especially in comparison to nutrition, fitness, exercise, is in a lot of instances, there's a certain degree in those other variables of willpower, discipline, commitment,
- just making the commitment to do the things necessary. Even though I don't feel like it, I'm going to go to the gym. Even though I don't feel like it, I am going to make this nutritional decision. It's a There's a degree of willpower that's involved. And sometimes that gets translated over into sleep, but sleep is different in this sense that what it's actually requires is surrendering of that will.
- And often, the more stress we put on it, the more we try to treat it like a performance of All right, I'm getting into bed. I got to sleep. I need my 8 hours. I'm I'm in. I need to perform. The more it tends to pull us in the opposite direction. And it creates a bit of this snowball effect, which is where I find a lot of guys end up, which is this stress and anxiety and association that's built up around sleep and their sleep situation that becomes really negative.
- And the reasons why this overfocus on sleep duration can be so detrimental in a sense is number one, it takes away completely from the other pillars of healthy sleep. When you're solely focusing on sleep duration, you give no consideration to quality and depth, regularity, and continuity, which are other pillars of sleep, which of course we can unpack.
- But it takes away from those other pillars, which are equally, if not more important. And again, maybe even more importantly, it creates this stress and anxiety response, where if you don't get 7-8 hours of sleep, you're viewing it as it's an abject failure. It's not what it should be. And then that also leads it makes it easier to get to the point where you just say, This is what it is. Forget it.
- Like I just need to put sleep on the back burner, and that snowballs in and of itself, and it becomes something that's easy to deprioritize. I I'll even interject here. I got a new watch, and it does all the sleep stuff and all. If I upgraded from a a couple year older model until the battery finally wore out, and it's got my bio charge on it and all. It's an Amazfit Active 2.
- It's got bio charge and all this, and I can't seem to my best sleep score is a 76, which I guess is fair good, I think they tell me. And then I cannot seem to get my bio charge above 60 on average out of the 100, and I cannot seem to get it above that. And this is after a couple months, like 2-3 months of of paying attention and looking at this to the point where I'm like, all right, this is just what it is.
- So I'm even falling into that same pattern of behavior >> Well, as well. >> And I I think this is a good side conversation and segue here as well, because this comes up a lot, because there are so many more sleep trackers and watches that track sleep and all these things. I think overall, on the surface, these things are largely a net positive Yes.
- >> the awareness that they create and the often the intention that it directs people towards when it when it comes to I would feel [clears throat] that. Yeah, >> think overall, I think there is a degree of that that is there I think there's a net positive with these these sleep trackers. However, just like anything else and just like any other facet of technology, it doesn't come without come without error and Yeah, it doesn't come without some things that we need to to keep in mind. Mhm. Because this is actually one
- of the things that I I find contributes a lot more to the stress and anxiety that's already sometimes in place for people who struggle with sleep in in any capacity. So, what I mean by that is and if you're if you're listening, your your filter for this is are you someone who does well with having data and information? Yeah, okay. Yeah.
- >> It's the same thing like say a the scale in terms of body weight. Are you Is it data or is it drama? Exactly. That's it definitely Yeah, I totally get it. Most of the time you know who you are. You know what type of person you are in in terms of what you do with this information. This is especially important with sleep because taking a step I'm taking a step back, let's understand the the accuracy and alignment with with these sleep trackers.
- Generally speaking, I say there's three layers to these sleep trackers currently in terms of their accuracy and use. Right now vast majority of sleep trackers or products that are tracking sleep in some capacity are very good to excellent at distinguishing the first layer as distinguishing between are you awake and are you asleep on the base the base level.
- They're good in that context. Second, which can depend very much on the tracker itself, but usually pretty good to good in the second layer, which is distinguishing overall between rapid eye movement sleep and non rapid eye movement sleep. Right. And we can talk about differences and distinctions there in those different types of sleep and what they provide.
- But the third layer is the one that we really need to understand here and distinguish a little bit between. So, that third layer where I find most sleep trackers are actually not all that great and all that accurate yet is in really distinguishing between stages of sleep within the overarching.
- So, you have two categorizations. You have non-rapid eye movement sleep and rapid eye movement sleep. Right. Let's jump in and define those so that everyone knows. Yeah. On the the surface, they're categorized by as the name suggests, rapid eye movement sleep is distinguished by rapid movement of your eye.
- This is typically your dream sleep. >> Right. This is we we generalize these phases of sleep where rapid eye movement sleep is most restorative for for the brain, for the mind. And non-rapid eye movement sleep is typically most restorative for the physical body. This is where we see a lot more cardiovascular regulation, growth hormone being released, repair of tissue.
- Whereas often in rapid eye movement sleep, this is more of the emotional processing, more of the taking off the edge to emotional trauma, all these things that happens more from an emotional regulation >> and unloading of a human existence. Ex- exactly. Making sense of this this world that we that we live in. Yeah. It's more of the emotional mental regulation side of things.
- So, that's the overarching categories. And within non-rapid eye movement sleep, you actually have depending on what classification you look at, anywhere from either three or four stages that increase in depth. So, you have non-rapid eye movement stage one, which is essentially very light sleep. This is where you're easily easily woken up, right? Somebody speaks a little more loudly, your kids make noise, you can easily be woken out of of that. Right.
- The second stage increases in depth. So, this is where we start to see more of that carryover into some of the physical recalibration and more of those things taking place underneath the surface. This is where we see the glymphatic system activate, which is how your brain essentially rids of of toxins. And then, depending again on classifications, you'll see just sometimes three stages, where the third is the large the the the biggest depth.
- And sometimes you'll see four stages, sometimes you'll see stages three and four combined. Not important. What What's important is that they increase in depth. And when we talk about deep sleep, so when there's all the attention for how much deep sleep are you getting, it's essentially how much time are you spending in these deeper stages, three, four, of non-rapid eye movement sleep.
- So, when you're looking at sleep trackers and they're giving you metrics for deep sleep, it's trying to get a snapshot of the amount of time you're essentially spending in those deeper stages of sleep. Right. Now, sleep trackers have come a long way, they've gotten a lot better. The problem is that we're currently missing the most important variable when it comes to sleep tracking.
- So, if you were to go into a sleep lab and you were to go and be tested for sleep disorders and you were to really get a full snapshot of your sleep, you'd be hooked up to a lot of wires and a lot of moving parts. >> yep. >> Electrodes, exactly. But, the most important variable that's being looked at is brain wave activity.
- And this is the distinction, the true distinction between sleep stages for characterizing more abnormal sleep behaviors, it's looking at brain wave activity. So, if you look at the brain wave activity of somebody awake versus in rapid eye movement sleep versus in deep sleep, they're going to look distinctly different.
- So, really without looking at brain wave activity, we're always going to be missing some part of the picture. Well, it's good that we're talking about the trackers cuz it's the first point of contact that you can increase your awareness and abilities to then positively influence sleep as long as it doesn't stress you out.
- Exactly. And this is where >> deeper levels. Exactly. And this is where I say you might be basing that stress and anxiety that you're feeling off something that's not entirely accurate. Like I can't tell you how often I'm working with someone and there's a fixation on their deep sleep number. Also important to note, like you have your raw data of what it's what it's getting.
- Every app, every tracker, every platform then has their own unique algorithm that they use to give you a sleep score or maybe it's on a zero to 10, maybe it's zero to 100. That is really just an arbitrary number that is their algorithm. And so, it's all well and good to have something that's giving you some form of >> Right.
- It's an apples to apples to that specific device that you can monitor progress over time. Exactly. Where it becomes the most valuable to me is it firstly use the filter, are you somebody who does well with data? And if you're somebody who the the number tends to stress you out and you focus more on that, I'd rather you don't use a sleep tracker.
- I don't think it's necessary and we can talk about some of the alternatives that you can use even just subjectively on your energy levels, your mood, your ability to focus, your productivity. All of these things they can give you a snapshot of your sleep, your sleep quality. But where they they can be beneficial, sleep trackers, if you are somebody who again, does well with with that data and information, is that even the variables that are maybe say more inaccurate, they are usually consistently inaccurate.
- Meaning if you're using them enough, you're still establishing a baseline and then you can still see how certain things affect that baseline, i.e. Right. sleep timing, nutrition, any number of variables, stress levels, you can see how these things ultimately affect your sleep sleep quality. So, that's really the best I think use case for them for the right person, but again, know that you don't need to use sleep trackers in order to improve and in some instances, a lot of instances, it can actually be more beneficial for you to
- remove that variable, at least initially. Yep. Let's talk about some of those specific alternatives so that people aren't all wound up about I remember this once an app that you put your phone under your pillow and you slept with it next to your face. But we'll talk about that and then let's and then and then we'll talk about why it's important for guys over 40 and weight loss and and different things like that we'll start moving into.
- So, what are some alternative ways than the the tracker here that I have on my watch? Yeah. So, the the biggest the the simplest alternative here and the lowest hanging fruit, easiest way to look at this, is what I typically have people do is select three or four, maybe five subjective values or subjective things in their life that they want to see improve.
- Right. This also creates a lot more kind of buy-in and investment for you in the the process because, I mean, let's also face it. A sleep score improving from 60 to 80 on some arbitrary scale doesn't really have any significant change in your life versus my energy levels are consistently a four. Right.
- The last few months, I've consistently been at a energy level throughout the day at about a four. Now, after making some changes and focuses on my sleep, implementing some strategies, I'm more at a six or seven consistently. That's a real progress that actually impacts your life. Those are the things that you actually want to see improve, not your sleep score, per se.
- It's what's attached to that. So, I usually have people select three, four, maybe five of these things. Usually, it's energy levels, mood, sleepiness throughout the day, focus, productivity. Sometimes, it's reactiveness. I find this is one especially for a lot of guys that have kids and have a family, they come right from the stressors of their their job into the the family environment, and they they find that actually their sleep sleep quality is one of those things that impacts that reactiveness that they have.
- Yeah, and it and that matters because you either react in an enjoyable or playful manner or you're grumpy and everyone's like, "What's wrong with him?" when you walk in the door. Exactly. And simply just, again, this is where sleep is the lever that influences across the board, but simply just getting better quality sleep can make it where you're reacting a little differently in those situations.
- You're not as reactive in in those situations. You have obviously there's there's personality here as well, but it just on a base level of the patients that you have, the reactivity, all those things we know can be directly influenced by by sleep quality. So this this allows something that's easy to to track, easy to look at, and it also connects to the things that are actually important to you in in your life.
- Another alternative, if it's more of a I want to use the term diagnostic, because we're not by both of us being coaches here, we're not we're not aiding you in being diagnostic around your sleep, or helping you identify sleep disorders, or anything to that effect. >> Right.
- But I say diagnostic in the sense of maybe you were coming from a place of more sleep struggle, versus just hey, I want to improve my sleep. That is where something like a sleep diary can be helpful, and there are plenty of them that are available. And this is usually just a one-pager that allows you to track when you went to sleep, when you woke up, if there were any times you were awake in the middle of the night, what were some of the thoughts that you had alongside that.
- So sleep diaries, they can give you some valuable information, some valuable insight. >> Right. Patterns of behavior. Without that same level of maybe stress and anxiety that that a sleep tracker might ultimately promote. Yeah. I totally agree with that. Cuz you'll start seeing patterns of behavior, and then you can start tracking them down to the actual behaviors that are leading to the cause of you having to pee three times a night.
- Well, you you drank too much of your water in the second half of the day, and that's disrupting your sleep. So how do we fix that thing to then improve quality of sleep? For sure. >> [clears throat] >> Excellent. Real quick, let's quick take a a quick backstep. Are there any sleep tracker devices that are you know, say okay, we're going to look at this one or that one that you generally recommend to your clients? Yes, so gold standard is still Oura Ring Okay. for me currently.
- And and part of that Okay. there's multiple reasons why that's the case. One of which is Oura Ring is doing a lot of their own internal research. A lot of them are, but they're really doing a lot of their own dedicated research and sleep specific research within the confines of what they're doing. Right.
- They're also any metrics that they are utilizing or anything that they include it all comes back to sleep. And I think that's an important distinction because one of the things that I find with a lot of the other trackers, be it Whoop or ones that are doing a lot of different things, they're processing a lot of different data, they're using different algorithms, and it's a lot and I think generally speaking the more that they're doing, the less accurate each individual variable becomes. More on average.
- So, the higher the complexity of the device, the more averaged out the results might be. Correct. For each And it's yes, it's giving you a wider lens, I guess, in a sense. But for sleep specifically or even any individual variable, the same thing applies for I used to do a lot of work with heart rate variability, and same applies for if you look at trackers or companies that are strictly focusing around heart rate variability versus doing heart rate variability and sleep and all these other areas, you just tend to get a bit a better output when there's more of a
- singular focus. I would agree. Okay, so we have Oura Ring. Is there any Is there a second one, maybe a watch that might be beneficial, more specifically leaning toward sleep at all? Are they all kind of the same? >> I would pretty much end the list there. And I >> [clears throat] >> only say that because so of course being in the being in the sleep space and now it's been >> Right.
- in and out of the sleep space for 7, 8 plus years and having a platform around that, of course there's no shortage of companies, products, supplements that reach out, that want to be affiliates, that want to have some type of partnership, that want to showcase their product. And I'm just I've to this point been very mindful of that and been mindful of specific recommendation.
- I don't have currently any affiliates or partnerships with any sleep-oriented product. And it's not to say that there aren't great products or or options. It's mainly that I try to keep the main focus on the things that are most fundamental and where people are actually struggling and are the things that don't get talked about as much.
- I think it's an unfortunate reality in the world of sleep in that if I look at the 7, 8 years that I've been focusing in this space, the numbers of people struggling really hasn't changed at all. But what has changed in that time is the number the sheer number of products, trackers, supplements, services that are targeting people struggling with sleep.
- And from a business perspective, right, I'm a business owner myself, I get it. Right. It makes complete sense. However, I find there's a lot, a lot, and so this is a practical point for for all guys listening to. There's a vast majority that over promise and under deliver on this. Yeah, and marketing gets the best of you. Is that they're not addressing the root cause of why you might actually be struggling with sleep.
- For example, I focus a lot on the behavioral side of sleep, which is where I find a lot of guys get stuck, and especially in a more chronic long-term setting. If you've been struggling with sleep for a number of years, and let's say you've gone and done some testing and ruled stuff out, and you're still struggling with sleep, it's likely behavioral, and it's likely that a sleep supplement or any product that's out there is not going to be the thing that >> Right.
- solves that for you or helps to solve that for you. But, when we're desperate and when we're struggling with sleep, it's very easy to just, you know, pay for it. >> Mhm. And again, that's not like an indictment on the entire >> No. product supplement industry in the space, because there's a lot of great stuff out there. Right.
- >> I know a lot of great people in it as well. They're trying to solve a problem. Right. But, generally speaking, again, where I try to keep the focus is on Right. >> the things that you can do your yourself. I also, if I'm if I'm working with someone in a coaching program, and I don't do as much one-on-one coaching anymore, but same applies for the coaches I work with, I don't want them to pay for a coaching program and then have to also go pay for an Oura Ring >> got the ring, too.
- this supplement, and this one, and that one, and so >> It keeps you unbiased, too, or slanted toward that particular product, and you always have to reference it or Exactly. >> get it in association with your service in a sense. And so, I completely agree, cuz I don't sell products or supplements or anything, it's the coaching, it's the the learning process, the experience process that these people need to go through for the behavior changes to actually create real lasting change.
- Let's define sleep struggles with sleep a little bit more. What what How is that defined? Yeah, someone that struggles with sleep. I struggle with I wake up at least two or three times to go to the bathroom and night I I I guess I got old man bladder. I'm just preparing for when I'm 80. But I can go back to sleep without problem and that isn't disrupted to my day.
- I'm not nodding off by 3:00 as a result of having to wake [clears throat] up with that more frequency throughout the night or whatever. But so let's define struggles with sleep so guys listening in can identify and listen to what Nick's saying about are you actually struggling with sleep? Yeah, and it's a really good frame because there isn't this clear definition of a sleep struggle.
- So if you look up and I do this a lot just because obviously being in the space, how many people are struggling with sleep? What percentage of people? What number of people? If you look that up, you're going to see a very very wide variety. Anything from a third of the population to even certain studies and certain instances that will show for example, there's a big one from Consumer Reports and it's that 80% of adults struggle with sleep at least one night out of the week.
- So again, there is no universally accepted definition or criteria for sleep struggles which can make the the water a little muddy in a sense. But to me the problem actually stems from the fact that we've normalized a lot of what I would consider less than optimal in quality sleep. Where we've accepted and this is especially I find especially true for guys the older we get the more that we just tend to accept I'm just a shitty sleeper.
- This is just I've always been not a great sleeper. Now I'm getting older and this is just kind of what it is. And there's a lot of self-fulfilled narrative and Mhm. that that exists within that. And so I find that really for me that the criteria is if sleep is impacting your life and your ability to show up where it matters in some capacity.
- And that can be on a grand scale. So if you're getting 4 hours of sleep and you need a nap midday and you find yourself at the dinner table with your family not able to be present cuz you're you're overly exhausted then that's all the way on the end of the the scale there. But it can also be that we've forgotten what it's like to function at optimal and we're always operating a little bit below baseline, right? Again, those energy levels, mood.
- It's It's really and especially for for guys that and it it actually speaks really well too. We had one of our other speakers for the summit who spoke to this really well was the warrior mentality of how much like guys just say like screw it. We just like power through and like we just do what we got to do.
- And that's like ingrained in what we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to do it. Right. But how much that can actually be be detrimental when it when it to when it comes to sleep. And it just takes us in the you know, the the opposite the opposite direction. So, you you can also have this functioning below baseline. I The distinction I make for this is there's a difference between getting by and thriving.
- Mhm. Right. >> Just because you're getting by, just because you're able to check the box of the things in your day-to-day life professionally and personally does not mean that it's optimal or that you're thriving. And I think a lot of times we really know that's the case. If we're really honest about it, we know we're leaving more on the table.
- And not to say that sleep is the only thing that lets you pick those things you're leaving off the table, but it's a big it's a big rock. Yeah. And so, when we talk about sleep issues themselves, I'm going to remove sleep disorders here for a moment because that's not my scope here.
- There are a number of sleep disorders. There are a number of medical diagnosable sleep disorders that >> Like sleep apnea. Like sleep apnea. And we can actually talk uh and I think it would be valuable to talk a little bit about that, just how I want to put a quick pin Yeah. You mentioned the Men's Summit. So, let's let's throw a little bit like 20-second plug on that cuz >> Yeah.
- that's one reasons why we're here in the first place. So, guys listen up. So, Nick's going to tell us about what the Men's Summit is and then we're going to jump right back into the the sleep talk here. Yeah. So, yeah, just a a quick plug here. I am co-hosting alongside Funk Roberts. So, for those who don't know Funk Roberts, he is a long-time coach and expert.
- >> A legend really in the the men over 40 specifically space. He's basically dedicated his entire life entire professional life to working with men over 40 and in the trenches working with men over 40. [clears throat] I myself obviously be have been in the sleep space. I've been in the the summit event space, hosted numerous events.
- And we decided to come together to create what we felt was very needed. Men over 40 are, and this is not hyperbole, this is not just to promote the event, men over 40 are the most underserved demographic currently in the entire health and fitness space. In terms of education, resources, and options that are directly applicable to you and where you're at and what you need, most underserved by a pretty substantial margin.
- And so, the goal with the Men Over 40 Health Summit, it's an entirely free event. It's available exclusively online, so you can be literally anywhere in the world. And it's an entire week. It is over the course from June 8th through the 14th. Each day has its own specific topical theme and focus from mindset and manhood to sleep and recovery to nutrition and supplementation to training to relationships to legacy.
- Literally everything that encompasses Mine was on chronic illness. It was on diabetes, type two diabetes, how to overcome it. Every facet of being a man over 40, every facet of health and well-being, being a man This is a the reference point. There's been nothing like this that brings together this much just in one place specifically for men over 40.
- >> Yep. And guys, listen in. I see the lineup that they have. These are legends. These are people that I grew up following over the years in the space. So, they they hit they they gathered everyone in this space. So, there's a lot of people, a lot of expert authorities coming in to speak on very specific topics that you will benefit from just by listening and being a part of it.
- Absolutely. There We left no stone unturned. So >> even if you're only able to to come in and consume 10 20 >> one pillar I'm telling you it will be it will be worthwhile. Again, it is every interview, every talk, the filter is simply how is this applicable for men over 40? It's not just theory or how is this specifically applicable for men over 40? So Perfect. Excellent.
- Thank you for sharing that. Absolutely. Back to sleep now? So back to sleep. Again, we're going to put a pin in the sleep as the cuz that's specifically sleep disordered breathing. I want to specifically come back to that. But to distinguish again, you have sleep disorders, diagnosable sleep disorders. And we screen out for these.
- We can look at some of these. These are a much lesser percentage of what people struggle with, what guys struggle with than you would think. And that's the important part because now aside from that we have three main causes of sleep issues. We call these the three P's. So these are firstly predisposing factors. This simply means anything that makes an individual more likely to deal with sleep issues versus someone else.
- These are the things that are just there at baseline. Higher levels of anxiety, lower distress tolerance. I cautiously put age into this category not to say that like see, I'm aging and that just means my sleep's going to suffer. But there are some physiological changes that take place and things we need to consider.
- But anything that's under this bucket all it means is that we just need to maybe give some consideration and understanding of those things up front to why they might affect sleep. Doesn't mean all hope is lost if you're someone who has higher levels of anxiety or it just means that there might be some sleep challenges that you would face versus someone else.
- >> Right. Letting your mind wander as you lay down and look up at the ceiling and all of a sudden you can't fall asleep for 45 minutes to an hour or whatever cuz you were once exhausted, ready to go to sleep, lay down and then brain goes firing and Yeah, it's the show >> And we're we're going to talk about that, too.
- The the distinction between being super tired and then as soon as you lay down and why that why you might feel awake. There's a There's a behavioral associative reason why that why that happens. But the second set of factors is the precipitating factors. These are the things that everyone every guy will face in some capacity at some point.
- We talked about this at the onset. You're sick, you're traveling, you have an increased period of stress, new change in schedule, new job, new kid, new change in your kid's schedule, any number of things that >> any number of things that can cause sleep to suffer for a period of time. This is like the acute onset of sleep disruption. And again, part of this is how do we view this? Do we view this as just hey, this is a temporary situation or a temporary variable or is this oh, here we go again.
- It creates a snowball effect. And we can come back to that. But the third fact set of factors, which I don't think it's talked about nearly enough and is where a lot of guys get stuck more long term. It's where the sleep issues become more chronic. This is what we call perpetuating factors. So these are where now fundamentally our beliefs and identity have changed around sleep.
- We've lost our confidence in our ability to sleep. Those acute phases have turned into something more long-term, and it's strictly based around the association and mindset that we have. A final and a nail in that coffin, so to speak, that develops is something called conditioned arousal. This is a the learned association and even expectation to be in bed and be awake and not able to sleep.
- A silly analogy I give for this is think of this like food poisoning. So, if you were to go out to eat at a restaurant with some friends, and you got food poisoning, like really bad food poisoning. And for those who've had food poisoning, pretty it's bad. >> Like top top 10 miserable human experiences if you really have bad food poisoning.
- Okay, so you you have food poisoning, and then a little bit of time passes, and your friends convince you to go back to this restaurant. We've eaten there before, this was a one-time event. You'll be fine. You go back to this restaurant, and you get food poisoning again. At the same restaurant. Okay, now at this point, obviously you're never going to go back. No.
- But at this point, even just hearing the name of the restaurant, a certain smell, driving past the restaurant, you might actually feel a little physically ill even if you're not consuming the food. This is >> what happens when we consistently spend time in bed not able to sleep, ruminating, struggling, tossing and turning back and forth.
- There is a learned association to be in bed and be in wake awake. This is part of why you can be incredibly tired to where you're falling asleep on the couch. You can't keep your eyes open, but the second you get into bed, you're wide awake. Right. That makes so sense cuz we are conditional human beings and we get in This is the environment that I do this thing say work.
- When I go or or like where I'm at right now, I'm in my barn. When I'm in here, I work out. I'm in work mode. I need energy and so it is very conditional. The brain is very associative and this is especially true with sleep. And so what ends up happening is your brain tends to associate your bed, your bedroom, your bedtime as more associations for being awake, maybe even being a little stressed and anxious.
- And this again is always going to be something that can get in the way even when you are super tired because it's it's that behavioral element that's going to always that's going to Yeah. I I do think that this is a probably most intriguing thing that we've spoken about around sleep and disordered sleep and or struggle of sleep, however you want to identify with that or attach yourself to it because if you get into the rut of I am just a bad sleeper, then that's that that contextual brain situation that you just are never
- going to get good sleep and then it's incredibly difficult to be able to get out of it. Well, and that's that's where the I think there's a massive gap in the industry is again going back to what we said earlier. If that's the place that you're in, if that's the relationship that you have with sleep, no product or supplement is going to fix that.
- >> No. And even in the the space of sleep hygiene and there's no shortage of sleep hygiene lists, ways you monitor, change your lights, things that you all these sleep hygiene lists >> curtains which curtains don't get blackout curtains and all right? Which don't get me wrong, 95% of the things that are on those lists are beneficial, they can be helpful.
- The problem is that number one, they're not individualized to you. They're not context-dependent to you. >> Right. And more often than not, they don't have what is the driving force, which can be that behavioral mindset piece. You can't sleep hygiene your way out of a negative Mhm.
- relationship with sleep, where you don't feel as though you have the confidence in it. You get more stressed and anxious about it. It's just this is what it is. You can't hygiene your way out of that. Right. All right, so we've we've talked about different sleep cycles, we've talked about devices, we've gone over some of the pillars, the struggles with sleep, these three different precipitating factors, which I find the third one to be most impactful here.
- But what are >> With our few minutes left, what are the tips, tricks, and strategies that are the takeaways for the guys listening in? Like, "Ah, I can do this one thing in the next week and and get a viable takeaway of improving sleep or at least that rate of perceived I feel better. I have more energy when I usually fall asleep.
- Yeah, all of these things that I'll give a few here, but all of these things come back to this relationship with sleep, because that is the most fundamental piece. And they all come back to bringing that third set of factors, those perpetuating factors, because this is where this is where we get stuck, right? If we If I place a general rule on I get asked this, "What What happens when I get a bad night of sleep? What should I do?" Right.
- And the answer actually surprises people, and they expect like this elaborate defense routine to work your way back. If you get one night, even two nights of poor sleep, what do you do? Nothing. Right. Literally nothing. Because what we don't want is to turn the inevitable into something that's bigger than it needs to be.
- One night of poor sleep is not going to be detrimental. It doesn't need to derail your entire It's like the same thing as one missed meal, one cheat meal, one missed workout, it's not going to break the entire journey. And the more that we allow it to, that's where one cheat meal turns into a bender of 2 weeks eating, you know, eating poorly or or in any in any capacity like that.
- So, just on the surface of when you have a poor night of sleep or even a poor week of sleep, the most important thing that you can do is just back to the norm, to not make it a bigger situation than it needs to be. If you over-caffeinate, if you try to nap to offset it, if you try to do anything that makes it bigger than it needs to be, the more it's likely to to snowball.
- >> Uh you have a pain in the knee and you compensate, now you have pain in your back. Same difference. Exactly. Exactly. Makes sense. >> Now, on the the the front specifically of improving your relationship with sleep, there's a few important exercises and a few strategies here. The first is what we call thought restructuring.
- So, I think it is legitimately foundational for you to look at what are the negative thoughts and perceptions that you have around sleep. Just dumping them out honestly. Again, things like if I don't get 8 hours, I can't function. I'm just a shitty sleeper. Like let out whatever the negative percep- Whatever the labels are, I'm just I've always been a shitty sleeper.
- Or I've heard things like my dad was a shitty sleeper, his dad was a shitty sleep- like You number It's generational. Even if they seem silly and even if it seems like I legitimately have guys write this out. Like, dump these things out because you need to get them out into the open. Yeah. Because the reality is your perception is your reality.
- Of course. >> And so, if you fundamentally believe these things any degree, they're going to shape your reality and your situation. So, the first step is get all those things out, and then we actually restructure them. As silly as it might seem, like I call it we we put the thoughts on trial. Is there literally anything that demonstrates that this is accurate? And maybe even more importantly, is there actually some evidence, subjectively or otherwise, that shows the opposite to that? That we actually are pretty poor at self-estimating our
- sleep and our sleep situation. And so, when we restructure these thoughts, is write them out in a more positive light. Say them. Speak them out. Make it where you're trying to change those new thought processes to your reality. Sometimes it seems like affirmations. I am a good sleeper. Yeah.
- It's again, sometimes affirmations and things like that, they seem silly. I also encourage like interjected into conversation. Like, talk about it with other people, too, because the more that you can make the new reframe thought second nature, the more it becomes more reality. Agreed. The The next is The next is something we call stimulus control.
- So, this is specifically combating that conditioned arousal we talked about, where your bed, bedroom, bedtime become triggers for being awake versus being asleep. And there's a few different layers to this. First is your bedroom physical bedroom and physical bed should be for sleep and sex only. Yeah.
- and I always say it's S's, but not sleep." >> For sleep and sex, but if you really look I the number of things that I see on a list of people do in their bedroom and in their bed, I know during COVID something shifted. Some people's office became their bedroom and whatever the case may be. That's fine. Make a cutoff point and distinction where from 7:00 p.m.
- or 8:00 p.m. your bedroom is strictly a bedroom and nothing else. You see people eating in bed, which I think is gross, but to each their own. Watching TV in bed, working in bed, Yep. having deep dive conversations and like this has been a hard adjustment for my wife, which is when we're in bed and my head hits the pillow, like that's time to sleep.
- I don't want to talk about and dive down the day. Preach. Preach. Happy to do that before and she now kind of understands a little better. Like we have a time for that, but it's not There's no pillow talk, right? It's like >> all of a sudden it's like I'm up 40 minutes longer cuz I fell asleep while she's She's scrolling scrolling on Instagram.
- She's talking I forgot to tell you this and this. Like, no, not now. Write it down. We can talk about it. We can talk about it tomorrow. So, physical bed and bedroom as a place for sleep and sex only. The second is this is one that surprises people or sounds maybe even sometimes counterintuitive, which is not going to bed and not getting into bed unless you are legitimately ready and sleepy.
- Even if it means you're getting less sleep. The The common example I always use for this is someone goes out with some friends or co-workers and they get home later and they know they need to be up early, so they are rushing themselves to go to sleep. Again, >> [clears throat] >> focused on sleep duration. What ends up happening is they're not physiologically ready.
- They're kind of wound up. Right. And they don't end up getting the 7-8 hours anyway, but now they're spending time in bed not able to sleep. Mhm. >> And it creates that that association. So, even if it means you're getting less sleep, only go to bed when you are actually ready. You don't go and sit at the dining room table and wait to be hungry.
- You go and you sit and eat when you're hungry, right? Same applies for sleep. And then the third and final variable to to stimulus control is when you are unable to fall asleep or you wake up in the middle of the night and you're unable to fall back asleep, if this happens consistently Right. and it's beyond 10, 15, 20 minutes, physically get out of bed and go do something else and come back, as counterintuitive as that sounds.
- Right. >> Obviously, it doesn't mean go turn on all the lights in your house and turn on Netflix and dive into a a deep Netflix series or open up your email or anything to that extent. >> Go do a word puzzle. Just I I like Sudoku. Reading. I actually find like some people they it's like light cleaning, like something just low level, low light, reading, whatever it is.
- And then spend some time when you get sleepy again, you go back. It's not something you're going to have to do forever, but it breaks that it breaks that that cycle. Right. Definitely. It feels like the biggest thing is the association with your sleep, the behaviors around your sleep, the way you your expectations around sleep are so definitely underserved to us and it's always, "Hey, get the watch or use this thing or take melatonin or whatever.
- " And and that is a huge takeaway that that I've had for our conversation today and I appreciate that because I talked to people about sleep. And this is just affirming a lot of things that I I say and share to my clients about sleep, but also giving that that expectation around the perceptual factors that people have around who they are as a sleeper in a sense.
- So, and the expectations around the sleep. And those are the things that you take with you everywhere. They're so fundamental. That relationship with sleep is something you carry with you no matter where you are, no matter the situation. I can't tell you how often I work with someone who if they travel, and this is the filter I give them, but if they travel and they forget their melatonin at home, they panic.
- And that is yes, melatonin can be effective. There's certain use cases, situations, fine. But if that's the baseline where you forget your melatonin at home while you're traveling and you panic, that is not the place we want to be in. And these behavioral variables are where you can show This is the adaptability of Same thing again for exercise and nutrition.
- This is being able to travel and still stick to some type of plan nutritionally that makes sense. Having just one dumbbell and some bands or just your body weight and still being able to get a training effect. It's the adaptability regardless of the situation. Right. Excellent. Well, Nick, thanks so much for coming on and sharing wisdom knowledge.
- The Men's Summit, again, guys listening in, June 8th through the 14th. This is time-sensitive. Uh it's coming up in about 3 weeks. There'll be show notes, links there. And then Nick, tell us how we can find you. What are some key things that you want to drop for the guys listening in so they can they can get more Nick? Yeah. yeah, absolutely.
- So, specifically for the the men over 40 health summit, menover40healthsummit.com is where you'll find all the the details on the event, how to sign up. Also, on Instagram @menover40summit. And specifically for myself as it pertains to to sleep, I am always available for for questions and conversation around sleep @theonlinesleepcoach on on Instagram.
- While I don't take on as many one-on-one clients in in that capacity anymore, I have a sleep coaching course that I've had for a number of years where we certify coaches. We actually put them through a program on kind of my entirety of system. So, there's always coaches that are in that and ecosystem that are are available for for people who might be potentially struggling and need a little more a little more guidance.
- And if you happen to be a a coach or practitioner or want to step into that space, we have our coaching course, which is sleepcoachcourse.com. Excellent. Excellent stuff. We'll have that in the show notes for everyone. And thank you so much. And remember, your sleep behaviors and all this is around your sleep identity.
- Who you think you are as a sleeper is often times the reality of what you are experiencing in terms of sleep. So, as Nick would say, so let's relax. Let's start doing normal sleep behaviors and let's stop doing panicked or anxiety-driven or any of these other things we talked about today on this so that you can get higher quality sleep, not necessarily sleep duration, and have more impact in your day-to-day life and more energy.
- All right. That is it for this episode of Driven for Health. Thank you so much for joining us, and off we go. Catch you in the next one. Upload.
