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Feb. 24, 2026

Real-Life Tales: Health and Life Inside the FBI - 77

Find the connection between physical fitness and mental resilience, especially if you've ever felt overwhelmed by stress, pressure, or life's crazyiness.

This episode features retired FBI agent Eric Robinson, who shares how exercise transformed his career and health, becoming his ultimate stress relief. If you're feeling stuck or struggling to find a healthy outlet, Eric's insights might change your approach to well-being.

Eric’s journey from a pastor dealing with stress headaches to a dedicated FBI agent and SWAT operator offers valuable lessons on physical preparedness and mental toughness. He explains how strategic training, disciplined fitness, and a resilient mindset helped him navigate high-stakes investigations, from wiretapping government officials to pursuing terrorists, and how these lessons apply to everyday life.

Eric also shares stories from his law enforcement career, showing that fitness is about more than performance; it's about survival, safety, and emotional health.

You'll discover:

How exercise serves as a key for stress relief and mental clarity during life's most demanding moments
The essential traits like drive, integrity, and motivation that determine success in physical or professional challenges
The surprising ways fitness testing reveals character and grit beyond just physical ability
Practical strategies for turning setbacks into motivation, inspired by the transformations of FBI candidates and military personnel
Why connecting with others, along with disciplined activity, is vital for long-term resilience and happiness

In a chaotic world, neglecting your physical and mental health could mean missing opportunities for growth and safety. Eric’s stories highlight how a driven life, whether in law enforcement or personal pursuits, is rooted in the discipline of fitness and strength of character. This episode is perfect for men who want to step up, manage stress better, and build a resilient mindset that lasts a lifetime.

Get inspired by Eric’s unique perspective on blending ministry and law enforcement, and learn why true success is about more than just passing a fitness test. You have to build a foundation for life.

Ready to discover how physical strength can empower your mind and soul?

Hit play now.

Eric Robinson, a recently retired special agent, spent 24 years investigating drugs, crimes against children, national security, and other federal offenses.

Before entering law enforcement, Eric worked in Christian ministry, serving as a Baptist pastor before his term with the FBI. Among his ancillary duties, Eric was a SWAT operator, fitness instructor, and he taught tactics and firearms.

Eric has written a book with the working title “Irreverend - From Saving Souls to Chasing Sinners in the FBI.” The book will be published in the Fall.

LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-robinson-9220053a4/

Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/_eric_robinson/

Want to be a guest on Driven For Health?

Send Brian Parana a message on PodMatch, here:

https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/brianparana

Want help applying this to your own health, weight, energy, or lab numbers?

Coach Brian Parana offers Health Hot Seat coaching segments for men who want a clear next step with nutrition, fitness, weight loss, blood pressure, cholesterol, A1C, or daily consistency.

Learn more about The Call To Rise, a 100-day coaching program for driven men over 40 who want to lose weight, improve their health, and rebuild confidence:

www.thecalltorise.com

To connect with Coach Brian:
brian@brianparana.com

Disclaimer: This podcast is for education and coaching support only. It is not medical advice. Always work with your physician before changing medication, treatment, or medical care.

Welcome back to Driven for Health. I'm Coach Brian Piranha. This is episode 77. All righty. Keep moving along. So, keep up with me. Today, we're going to tackle some mindset. We're going over fitness and what it means to live a driven life, especially from someone who's been in the profession, a retired FBI agent, Eric Robinson.
He's been in the bureau for was in for 24 years and was a former SWAT operator as well. and he helps get the guys fit and in shape and make sure that they are qualified to meet physical standards. We're going to go through some of the personalities, the the things that make the guys better or worse in terms of how they fall into just even the fitness and and then what that means for the rest of their career.
And we'll go over some some of our training. We we both ran very similar. We would have probably been running neck to neck in our race and he would have pulled ahead at the end of like, "Dang it, there he goes." But we'll talk about some fitness and some food and different things as well and and the demands of his unique shift in his career too from being a Baptist preacher to being in the FBI. Welcome, Eric, to the show.
Thanks, Brian. Appreciate you making some time for me. >> Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It was really great connecting with you yesterday in our pre-in and I said, "Yep, this is going to be a great conversation and let's open up with the the marathon and the the training and the exercise because that's the easiest obviously talking point here and connection.
Um, what got you into running and what what was it that that shifted that?" I had a buddy in college who was a cross-country runner and he encouraged me to do a 5K with him when we were in school and I thought, well, that was pretty good. That was fun. I was fairly lean at the time, too. And uh just kept up with running as a hobby along the way, but uh as a pastor, I ended up having a little more free time where I could fit running in, getting longer runs.
But the the marathon running was an outcropping from a actually a health issue, >> right? >> I had stress related headaches as a pastor every single day, every day for about two years. And I found that the only thing that brought any type of alleviation was running. So running was regular part of what I do, but I'd go out and do a few miles.
And I realized, oh wow, the longer I stay out, the longer I'll I won't have a headache because eventually there'd be a little afterglow, but then here comes the headaches again, >> right? And so, okay, I'm going to run eight miles now because that'll at least give me an hour and a half and then 10 and on from there >> until I finally thought, oh, you know, I'm I'm getting better at this, you know, let's let's keep training.
97 was my first marathon. >> Yeah. >> And uh and I did well. I I was running in Western New York, you know, hills everywhere. >> Yeah. I qualified for Boston and ran it in 2000. And I remember like the hill just outside my door was so steep. I I'm running and I'm like on mile 22 and I asked somebody like, "Where's where's Heartbreak Hill?" And he said, "Yeah, it was a mile back there.
" And I thought, "Oh, okay." It was that was a rise. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I remember Boston in 204 from me. That was my second marathon. And Yeah. Yeah. >> Wow. So, we're we're in a a good class together. >> Well, that that's a class I've graduated from because along the way doing a few things to my body, it it's it's harmed my back.
>> I got to the point where I was trying to keep up, but just the the pounding, >> right? Of course. But we definitely had things correct. >> Yeah. And the biggest part that I hear is you used exercise to relieve challenges, pressure, stress that was coming in your life. And a lot of the guys that are listening to this, they're in our age range, 40 and up, and they're dealing with a lot of different things from pressures at work to full-time family. I have four kids.
My oldest just qualified for swimming at states, which means that we have an extra week of swimming. Then we have more driving and and we have to go a 90 minutes away to the venue now instead of 25 minutes away and spend I spent probably six hours this past week and the week prior at the swim meet and all and so you you know there's a lot of different things going on but I I find that the the really unique piece is that you found that exercise did help alleviate some of the pressure, the stress and and and you took and and
ran with it. Pun intended. >> Yeah. Yeah. It it was So, keep this in mind. I was running before we had iPods >> and you can't really have a a Walkman jiggling the whole time. So, >> you know, there are times I'm out for two and a half hours and >> it's it's just this. But that also allowed for >> just the freedom to let things out, to think them through, and to just have an empty mind because you might want to try to think of something, but inevitably the mind just goes blank.
And >> right, >> that was very useful for me at that time. >> Mhm. I I would agree with you. Whenever I was in workouts, especially the harder or the more involved they were, the less I thought about anything. And it's just it was such a easy time to check out of the daytoday challenges that came up regardless of whatever age you are because you always have challenges.
It's just it's life. It's always throwing curve balls at you. There's always something to change. Now what was bringing on some of that stress and challenge in in your career choice? Well, people are different and for me this is just how I was how my mind was working. We had built a church that was meant to reach out to folks who didn't go to church, who might be kind of outcasts, and we had people with a lot of problems.
>> That's the the point of church, right? >> It is. Yeah. We didn't we were we weren't looking to just bring in people from a different church to go, "Oh, we're like this and we'll we'll give money over here." We were looking to bring in people who >> just didn't feel like they fit in. And the unfortunate part of that is people of that nature bring a lot of problems with them.
I just did not find myself capable of letting go of those issues >> when somebody from the congregation said, "Oh, I you know, I think my son is is an addict." And another says, "My wife is leaving me." And another one is saying, "I can't afford groceries." >> Those are heavy. >> I wasn't able to let that go.
And that and other issues just kept compounding. And I saw every doctor. I took every ibuprofen related medication and nothing worked. One doctor said, "This is definitely stress related. Have you considered not being as stressed?" >> And that's what led me to a a career change because I told my wife one day, "I have to find something different.
I can't do this anymore." >> From Baptist pastor, I applied for two jobs. one I was overqualified for, one I was underqualified for, and I got this one. >> So, and it worked out. Yeah, it did. Looking back, it it unfolded well. Now, in that position, I I feel that way, too. Any person that I've worked with, I've been doing this for 23 years.
They're like my child, they're someone that is a part of me, and I want them to be successful. And we know that the success is in their hands to create, but you want to foster that. You feel responsible. I I recall one time I was train I was personal training. It was in my backyard where I'm usually my my studio is my barn gym, but it's snow and it's just insulated.
So it would be 30° out there. Me standing around freezing. I'm inside right now in my my my my winter studio I suppose. But I was would train out there. Two people wanted to quit basically in the same week and there it goes a couple hundred bucks in in a month and I'm breaking out. Well, that ended me on the couch for two nights cuz I was emotional and strain and stress.
My wife says, "What what are you doing?" Basically, just call me out. It's like, "Dude, what's what's going on? because you're emotionally spewing over everything here and it's not good. Now, so you took two two running as a culprit or a a way to ease that pain. What are ways that you've seen other people take that route of I'm getting stress and pain and you're dealing with them because because guess there's probably somebody listening in that is going through an enormous amount of stress or strain and they might be choosing a bad making a bad choices instead of maybe
exiting the stressful situation. and they just keep wanting to double down and and just play provider or or or whatever role or fulfillment that they need out of that. >> Yeah. The mind's a very dangerous place and I found that running helped me get out of that. >> Now for me it's now I lift weights. I can't run as much anymore.
Now I lift weights and I've got a punching bag. those times to just release. If I if I leave and I'm exhausted when I I I work out in my barn, if I'm exhausted, it's it's almost like a blanket just wrapped around me that being able to just tear down the body in a healthy way. Um the the there's a freedom in feeling like I've released something here. I've gotten away from it.
If if there's a proveration going on just over and over, nothing's being solved. Thinking about what he said and what I should have said back or maybe I can solve the problem this way. There's a limited need and usefulness about that. There's only you you spend your time, you think about what needs to be done, and then you just need to let it go and let life play itself out. Wait, I would totally agree.
Gentlemen, if you're listening in, what Eric is saying, what I'm saying and would agree upon is there are multiple ways to relieve stress. A lot of them take you further down the wrong road with money, sex, alcohol, the list goes on with addictive behaviors that men can do and and women that humans do. But finding exercise as a keystone to help alleviate stress was pivotal and it's paved the way for a 25 marathon.
Was that >> 252? Don't >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, we need those extra two miles. Close. Yeah, we need that. I I know. Uh my I ran the Marine Corps and I got 256 and I was I just wanted to be faster techn I think that's what that I was projecting there. But you're running you're running and you think if I go to the bathroom I'm going to be at least 30 seconds slower which over the next five miles I have to run five seconds faster per mile.
like >> well and without getting into too much detail Brian like if if you're running marathons you know >> training is the most important second most important is evacuating before you run and I would and I would always take like the night before take senot and the my 252 marathon nothing happened and so I'm running and then I'm at mile 8 and go oh man >> and then I'm at mile 10 and I go.
Well, I'm not going to hold this for 18 more miles. My fastest marathon, actually, I had a pretty decent pit stop, but obviously I was running negatives the rest of the way. I was just passing everybody, >> right? Oh, that's so funny. Yep. And you stress about that. Talk about stress. The key takeaway that Eric and I are saying is use exercise, use activity, move your body to alleviate stress because that is going to be the the long-term best way for you to de decompress to release the steam and the kettle that's going to boil over.
and boiling over as just some of the examples of the challenges of the congregation. It causes real big problems for for for people. Let's transition into FBI agent. Very cool. That's one of the unique things like ah I haven't talked to an FBI agent. Let's let's jump in to talk with Eric about his experience.
Tell me what was what's the the career? What were some of the really good takeaways that you had got from it initially? and we'll we'll keep rolling with it. >> Well, I started in Chicago, did eight years there. Uh I worked we had two drug squads. I worked on one of the drug squads looking into the cartels.
After 5 years, they dissolved my drug squad. Uh I presume because we had uh taken care of the drug problem in Chicago and it was all maintenance from there. But then worked moved on to working gangs uh and public corruption >> along with civil rights. Good stuff. >> Yeah. Finished out in Chicago on the public corruption squad where we were wiretapping the sitting governor Rod McGgoyovich as he was trying to sell Barack Obama's seat.
And uh I can tell you from that experience that governor did nothing. You know, we'd listen to phone calls and he would he would call Dusty Baker, who was manager of the Cubs at the time, and give him uh lineup advice. And I guess that's what you do as governor. >> Yeah. Just so what is he actually doing anything? Yeah, we could question that about a lot of our administrations throughout the time.
>> We'll let that one go. >> Yeah. From there in 2010, I moved on to the Cleveland Division where >> I've worked just about everything >> human intelligence, national security, organized crime, crimes against children. So, gotten a good sense of most of the violations that the FBI works. Um, >> and got to see some FBI agents whenever there's a downtime, whether it's, you know, waiting on a drug dealer to come or we've just finished an operation, sit around and tell stories.
And so as as we tell these stories, I I still I I I had been in the FBI for 24 years, but it still was unique enough to me where as we're telling these very common stories, I can step back and go, man, that's remarkable. Like that's actually a very cool story. I I put all those stories into a book I'd written as well because >> just just looking back working crimes against children with teenage prostitutes and pimps or working national security and and arresting actual legitimate terrorists who are going to kill people.
It's kind of interesting now that I look back. >> Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. I I I I can share tons of stories that highlight throughout my career different people that have made exponential amount of progress and success and what the impact is on their life. So we all have stories that we can tell from the life that we live or we travel a lot and my wife is a wanderlust and she loves to travel.
She actually just left our family today. My wife left me, but she went to Orlando with her girlfriend and she's going to be there for 4 days. I'm holding down the kids. Hopefully no one needs dad while we're talking. >> Yeah. But we've traveled all 50 states. We're on to multiple countries and going to try and do all seven continents and just unique pieces of it.
Is there one story that stands out that that is just one of your favorites of taking down the big guy or Well, we so I worked uh criminal violations for 15 years and then got transferred to a national security or counterterrorism squad and the first case I had on that squad was on a terrorist who was charged with providing financing to Anoir Alaki who was a Yemeni American who was a spokesperson for al-Qaeda.
So we had charges on him already and when I came onto the squad, there was a report from one of his fellow inmates that he wanted to kill his judge. He believed if his judge was out of the way, a different judge would give him leniency and then he could get out and now fulfill his desire to kill people. So, we worked up a case of murder for hire.
The the inmate who was with him was just some hillbilly. He was just a white guy with no education. He was actually in prison for production of child pornography. But it was kind of one of those penthouse letters type situation where he had videotaped himself having sex with a 17-year-old, which is child pornography, >> right? >> Convincing her that he could get her in the movies somehow.
And when I asked our federal prosecutor, and that was a state charge, I asked our federal prosecutor, "Would you even charge him if this is a case I brought to you?" He said, "Absolutely not." But that guy got 40 years, the cooperator got 40 years in prison because every time he appeared before the judge, he was incorraible and the judges kept hammering him.
He worked well for us. He We put a tape recorder on a guy and I won't go into all the details of how difficult it is to get a recorder on an inmate and send him back into prison, but we did that. and he first came to us saying, "Hey, this guy is saying he wants to kill his judge." >> So, we send him back in and say, "Have him tell you that again.
" And he goes, "Hey, you know, when you're talking about killing the judge, uh, tell me about that again." And dang it, he told him again. So, here we are. And we had a new case. uh that that individual Yaya Farukq Muhammad ended up getting 26 and a half years for both of those violations to be deported afterwards.
And the cooperator ended up taking nothing. He wanted us to completely erase the 40-year sentence, which we couldn't do. And so he goes, "Screw you guys." And so he did it for absolutely free. >> Oh my goodness. pretty pretty wild. One of my good friends, he is a he works at a a jail in county jail and the stories that he shares or tells or different things are pretty wild.
I said, Dan, just so you know, it's not in my mind or brains ever go to jail. So, so just not interested in that being a life experience that I get into. No, thank you. And that's what he does for work. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's show pretty wild stories. >> Yeah. He shared one just the other day. It's like, wow. Guy punched another guy.
>> And as a result of it, he's broke his jaw and probably going to get eight years for that two two minute squabble something because they said something to each other and you know like it. >> So pretty wild. So, you did some pretty hard stuff with the the FBI and the stories can go on.
You ended up shifting into some fitness testing. >> Yeah. Uh there So, I was a field agent like the majority of agents and we have support staff, analysts, secretaries, most auto shop. Um I was a gun carrier and there are ancillary jobs that people can take on as well. employee assistance, evidence recovery. Uh my first side job doing field work as well, doing investigations, was a fit instructor.
And so, uh that meant me testing applicants who came in. And in Chicago, we would have a large group coming through regularly recruiting. And remarkably though, the the marks you have to hit, the form you need to carry out is all online and people know what they've got to do, >> right? >> I would say it's about 30% would pass. >> And when I say pass, that's like that's at a at a minimum level, like just squeaking.
10% that are doing it, but then another 20% of those 30 that are probably just like, "Wow, you are way out of shape." >> And they're showing up they're showing up not ready. So that was eye opening as well, >> right? Especially with the the level of what I would believe FBI to attract. If I'm want to be an FBI, this isn't just like police.
My my Akran, you know, Akan because you were in Cleveland. I'm not joining the Akran Police Department. I'm joining the FBI and that there would be a certain standard that I would want to raise up to. I also think that if I was in the FBI, I totally would have done this job. It just fits it totally fits who I am and what I've done and I would always do.
I remember we'll do a quick side note. It was we had this CrossFit gym back in 2010 2011. We had this this uh it was the intro workout. Eric wants to join CrossFit. You have to do a introductory conversation to introduce you to the gym and get to know you and all. And then we would talk about what CrossFit is because this was before it hit mainstream.
>> This was there was say two maybe three that were in a 15 or 20 mile surrounded area of where we were going. So it was starting to take shape and then a year or two after there was multiple CrossFit gyms in the area. So we literally just hit right before the wave of of getting into the mass media and the CrossFit games becoming really big and actually on TV or whatever.
I actually went to the CrossFit games with my personal training client Betsy Finley. It's pretty cool experience. She won at the age of 60. But uh so we take people through the intro workout and it was 500 meter row, 40 squats, 30 push-ups, 20 sit-ups, and or 30 sit-ups, 20 push-ups, and 10 pull-ups. So something I could do in five minutes, >> fast and and I'd be out of breath, but I boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, all done.
And the people I had for so there's still a Pinterest board up take pictures of people that weren't feeling well. I called it the pain cave. But people would just lose their their marbles in a sense around >> probably their lunch too. >> Yeah. Yeah. And they would that that would be the impetus to help sway them to join up like, "Wow, you're really out of shape.
you probably should join us so we can get you in shape and it works out pretty well. But for >> Yeah, there's a lot of motivating factors. >> Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So, doing the fitness test, you have people coming in. One thing I want to touch base on is the characteristics, the personality, the the determiners of who would make it verse not.
to for the guys listening in, what was the the the line or the difference of someone who had the intention, the integrity or the key characteristics? What were those that got them to qualify verse bail out? >> Yeah. And I can I can give you that example with two people. When I was in Chicago as an agent, there was a young woman who lived at home taken care of by her family and she had applied to get in the FBI and she had failed the fit test.
So they sent her back to her processing office which is Chicago and in the meantime she's supposed to get better so that you know in whatever it was 30 days then she would try out again go to a class and I remember sitting a wire tap with her and suggesting like hey you know what push-ups are always there. right there all the time.
If you got a floor, there's push-ups. And she goes, "No, no, no, no. I I do my workouts later." And I said, "You know, we can do them now, too. We got a little lull on the wire." And she said, "No." And she never became an agent. And then there was another individual who was a buddy of mine. He was in Border Patrol, but he worked with us on a task force.
And he was a he was tall and a big guy. He carried his weight well, but it was just definitely too much weight. And I happened to be proctoring his fit test. I didn't know he was trying to be an agent with us. And when he came out, you know, he failed pretty badly. And I said, "Hey, man, talking to you straight. You got to lose weight. You're just way too big.
You're not going to be able to do the sit-ups to form. You can't do push-ups. You're not going to do a sprint or run." And the next time I saw him, maybe 90 days later, maybe a year later, I forget what it was, but he had dropped 75 pounds. >> Yeah. and he was lean and he has been an agent since then. So he >> the difference there was in much age and motivation he was sticking his neck out on the line possibly leaving another agency looking bad if he failed >> right >> the other was a young gal who just didn't have the experience and if she
didn't become an agent then you know she'd find something else so the one who was already in border patrol understood a bit about what it's like to be a federal agent and he valued that the other one thought Oh, maybe this would be kind of cool. Might be nice to join the FBI. And that obviously didn't drive her enough.
>> The reason why is a huge thing. So, I I would come across a lot of people in the military and not so much in in say police officers, first responders, but definitely military where there's a strong line where your your physical fitness test that you needed to do. If you didn't pass it, they're going to kick you out.
I've got a guy right now in my program, the call to rise, and he is down 240 to 212 since we met, and he is very motivated, very driven. He's also doing a ruck marathon, >> and it's just the type of personality we're working with. But he was just 240 pounds, just fat ultimate. I had to call him out. He's like, I need to lose weight.
And the military called me fat, so I need to lose weight if I want to keep my my job, my post. And he's been flying. And the there's a big difference in in him going to obviously make it make the cut and do all the things that he needs to then. And and I think intrinsic with people is once you start having success, it it's a matter of having the drive to get there.
But and you know when you start running it sucks when you just start >> but you have to realize there's a place that you hit where it goes oh okay I do I can do this and this is actually enjoyable and it's the same with anything else. Can you get past that that first stage where there's very little results and it and it really sucks and it doesn't take long to get past that.
It's a it's a heartbreak hill in a sense. uh on the the road you do have to go through it. There is pain associated with it of you changing from where you are at deconditioned not in shape to creating change and and physical transformation to be able to do the activities. So we have to be able to get push push through that.
It it does share a little bit about your personality and about who you are as a person. if you want this goal, especially with a probably could call it a basic PE test, right? It's not like they're having you try out for the Navy Seals. Yeah. Trying to get to the FBI. That's not the the first level of it.
It's like basic boot camp. Like this is can we do some push-ups and sit-ups and can you run your body in a certain time? Right. So, you also did squat operators. What was the difference between that and and hanging out with those guys? >> Yeah, at least in the Cleveland division, you know, guys aren't hanging on and wearing kit all day, having to do strenuous things without being in shape.
So, >> the maj the majority of FBI agents want to stay in shape. Totality of SWAT operators have to stay in shape because it you're called on to be available to do significant things. for me. >> Yeah, >> I was a breacher on our team, which meant I've got to be able to swing a ram, swing a sledge, and open doors because if the door doesn't get open, we're unsuccessful in the mission.
So, that meant >> for me being ready. And our SWAT fit test is something we'd have to do on top of the agent fit test, >> right? >> Sometimes the guys were idiots and wanted to do both in one day. Oh, of course. Right. The mentality, right? >> No, just get out of the way. It was terrible. But >> you had to show that you were available as a SWAT operator.
And that was important. Not just because you wanted to look good and tough, but my physical ability meant safety for the guy next to me. >> So, if I'm dropping out >> then I'm not covering his back. If you don't clear that door in the first swipe, it's just a loud door knock and they know you're there. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like, oh, someone's at our front door and they're they mean to come in.
So, just a knock. >> So, we had I wear a Garmin watch and it checks my heart rate. In July of uh 2024, >> we had an operation where it was a difficult terrain. Uh the subject was a young man who had mental health issues and he was trading in child pornography. There were a lot of factors that made it dangerous and so the SWAT team was called for that.
He broke out a window and charged the three of us. It was me and two other operators covering the side in the back and he charged us with a bat. We gave him every opportunity to put it down. and he eventually we ended up using deadly force on him. The point I'm making to this story is I went back to my phone and I looked and you can I you can tell the minute when he came at us because my heart rate went to I think 175.
>> Yeah. >> But then also we had to clear the house. So at that point it's down to 85. And if I'm not able to recover from that, then yeah, >> I I got to tag out. I can't I can't do my job. >> But I had to be in shape to do that. >> Oh, definitely. Definitely. And recover. I'm surprised it wasn't over 200. >> It It was wild fitness >> because I asked one of the guys next to me.
I said, "Hey, how long do you think that whole period was?" Because I'm going to tell you, it's probably one of that time. And it both we both thought it was like five minutes. It was a minute and 17 seconds. >> Yep. That's That is It's a lot. >> Yeah. >> And if you're not in shape, that that type of a incident could cause some real physical harm to you.
>> Yeah. >> Like a heart attack. >> Yeah. >> So, the guys on the team across the board stayed in shape. Uh, I I live in the Toledo area, so when we would have operations, I'd be getting up at 1:30 in the morning and driving a couple hours to Cleveland and I was >> about the first one there. >> Yeah. >> So, I was typically the first one there, >> except a few times where I'd hear clunking while I'm in the basement garage in the gym just above and, you know, here comes my buddy who got there so he get a workout in before our
operation. He's, you know, here he's lifting at 4:00 a.m. and God bless you. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's motivation. It's drive. >> Excellent. >> Coming back from throughout the FBI, what were some of the lessons that you learned that you could share with the guys listening in? >> As I mentioned, as a pastor, I had a hard time letting go of issues.
I found that in law enforcement, we would have 12 guys that we were ready to indict on a drug case, for example, and the federal prosecutor would say, "No, we're only going to do six of them." And so, here's guys that we know are bad people that are not going to get charged. >> And uh that was fine.
I mean, we, you know, we'd MFM and be pissed and then you let it go because it didn't matter. It wasn't part of my life. So being able to let things go, realize the justice system or you know another bad guy will take care of that was significant for me. Um, right. Also just learning h >> just learning how to manage some of the other terrible things that we saw which came with >> just downloading that with a buddy.
Having people that you know you can talk about >> and it didn't have to be like, "Hey man, I'm really hurt and struggling from this." It's just >> just recounting it. >> Just having an openness. when we had that shooting uh a year and a half ago, it's difficult because you don't talk to anybody because the people around you are investigators too and they can be called to a stand.
It was a good shoot. It was clearly but in the past people were separated and the set off to the side, their guns taken away and they were cast out in a sense for their own safety. But now there's a psychological harm that's happening. So >> my SWAT TL was smart enough to know and have done some research talking to other teams that have been in deadly force situations to say now we're going to put this person with that guy and he's going to follow him for whatever he needs throughout the day.
>> Right. >> And make sure that he's taken care of so that everybody was not cast away separated and isolated. >> Right. Right. I think that the connection piece is is critical, especially for guys. I that's one of the reasons why I created the call to Rise program was to help men get in shape and lose weight and eat better, but to have connection because it's life is busy. Life is full.
And if you're not purposely connecting with other men, then you are on your own in a sense. There's no one to vent. There's no one to decompress. There's no way to release. And as we said in the beginning of our conversation, exercise was a huge release and connection point. And I know that, you know, that a lot of people do know that, but they don't do anything with it and seek it out.
So, they just end up getting more unhealthy. So, that that is a huge point of of having that connection with with the other guys. >> Yeah, absolutely. The guys on the SWAT team were the closest people to me. You know, without sounding silly about it, when you have guys next to you that you know are set to put their life for yours, >> it makes a difference.
>> And now those niggling little favors you might ask somebody, I know I'm going to a SWAT, buddy, because this guy's willing to die for me. Definitely, he'll pick something up and stick it in the mail for me, too. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I I totally agree with that. That's excellent. For you, what did the the bureau teach you in in life? The bureau, I don't know how much it taught me, it confirmed a lot that I found.
So, working in ministry before, you've got to show compassion, kindness. One of the things that came up a lot, you you've got to be curious with people and not have judgment right away. And I found that working with victims, witnesses, informants, even the bad guys, if I came with a closed mind and judgment, I know everything. Shut your mouth, you're guilty.
It was less profitable than coming in. Many times people would comment, they'd had runins with law enforcement before, and here's one more, but it was their first with the FBI. would often comment like, "Hey guys, I just appreciate you were professional with me. You know, we took care of people. We're gonna break in their door.
We're going to put them in handcuffs and we're going to wrestle them if we need to." >> But I I even had one father thank me for executing a search warrant and arresting his son >> because he knew his son was likely to be a mass shooter and he couldn't control him. So, we took guns out of the house and he thanked us.
I I was I'm amazed by that. So the bureau confirmed that treating people well, I can always I can always play bad cop. That's always an option later, >> right? >> But the longer I can play good cop >> and show compassion to folks, it usually benefited the entire situation both for me and for the other people too. >> Agreed. I I love that.
That's people ask me different things and that's one thing I'll tell them is leave the other person in a better spot than when I found them. And when you approach situations like that regardless of the challenge then yeah there's a lot more cooperation and willingness to get to the outcome that that you're after.
For me it's to help improve someone's life and get them to lose weight or or whatever. And and for you it's to >> complete the task confession. >> Yeah. Yeah. Complete the task at hand and and not have to wrestle someone. I'm sure that's not the first action you ever wanted to do going in. We're like, I don't really want to get sweaty going into this this this this uh job right here.
Just can we just talk? >> Yeah. We had a situation once where we were there to arrest uh middle middle-aged man in his 50s and his two nephews were there and they came to the door ready to fight us and we could have fought I mean we had more than they did and we had guns and you know my my hand on a shoulder and calmly talking to them to say look we have an arrest warrant this is going to happen let's talk and you know I sent the rest of the team team in while I calmed them down and we affected the arrest.
We could have gotten it done. We could have knocked them around and you know cuffed them too and so but it just works smoother and better to say I get it. >> You are embarrassed. You are put down a notch. You may have had experience with police before. Let's handle this in a logical and in the best professional manner we can.
And they responded to it. >> Yeah. Yep. >> Interesting because you you know it's like rolling dice or would it be like rolling a dice or flipping a coin when you went into these situations? You know, one being a lot more odds that it'll pan out well or I don't know. Yeah, you don't know. Uh, which is why, you know, we bring 20 people with rifles and an armored Bearcat, but typically when somebody looks out the window and sees that they're surrounded and there's lasers coming through their window, it makes everything safer.
>> If it's just you and me going to a door, some guy might go, I don't know, might be able to take them. >> Yep. Force. And yeah, that helps. Well, let's start wrapping up. Uh, tell us some more about the book that you have. So, I I wrote a book. My my wife said, "What do you want to do when you retire?" And I said, "I don't know.
" And she says, "You should write a book." Well, my wife owns a company that uh publishes and markets books. And she says, "Go ahead and write a book." And so, I sat down and I just I started recounting stories. And then, >> oh, this is a good one, too. And it just flowed from there. What I do from that is I tell my story of being a Baptist pastor and then moving into law enforcement for 24 years, but I also add to the stories how in in some sense as we're discussing how I took that past in ministry and I saw it coming to play in
law enforcement and after each chapter I finish with an afteraction review which is considering what did we do right, what did we do wrong, how did this turn out and then then I had some other vignettes and stories that are related to that too. So the working title right now is irreverent because I was irreverent and much of the stories are quite irreverent and it just gives a I think a unique perspective on what somebody from my position I hadn't met any pastors in the FBI.
How does somebody preach in the pulpit one Sunday and then is in the FBI academy the next Sunday, >> right? Those are great stories. >> That'll be coming out in the fall. >> Okay. Okay. Is it you still have more to write or just in the editing? >> No, it it's just in the editing. Uh I mean I still go back and review and try to punch it up and tighten it, but I wrote it over a number of weekends and things just flowed.
It it's just like we were sitting in the Bearcat and I'm telling stories to a buddy like, "Hey, you remember that time this guy did this?" And like, "Yeah, that was crazy. Jumped out of a window and broke his back." He said, "Yeah, crazy." >> Yeah. Wow. That's wild. All right. So, we can look for it in the fall. That'll be good.
Well, I want to thank you for your time and energy today coming on to the show. It it seems like the one key takeaway is that you need to be fit for life, right? That's the the opening piece and the underlying tone of the conversation, getting into the fit test and being able to get into the FBI. And then be professional, treat people well as best you can in whatever situation that you're in.
And usually things will go uh a little more in cooperation at the very least and hopefully in a better outcome as well. I want to thank you for your time, Eric, and everyone listening in. In the show notes, we'll have something for Eric to be able to get on his weight list for the book. And I hope that you enjoyed some stories from an FBI agent.
And we'll keep some interesting guests coming. I've got a pipeline full of different different a lot of different people doing a lot of different things. So, I hope that it'll add to not only the health fitness aspect of the show, but the other underlying point that I want to make is like men are out here doing things and they need connection and they need opportunity and and and different things like that.
So, all right, off we go. Thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Driven Health. Thank you, Brian.